Aubrie Pohl, NLP Trainer, Human Communication Specialist, and speaker, is back on the podcast! In this episode we are talking about the work of Marshall B. Rosenberg and Nonviolent Communication. This proven technique and formula for non-violent communication will help you improve your communication, relationships and boundary setting with family, friends, co-workers...basically everyone!
Mentioned in this episode:
- Get the book Nonviolent Communication by Marshall B. Rosenberg
- Episode 88 Changing Your Perception using NLP w. Aubrie Pohl
(1:45) Boosting conversation confidence
(4:00) The same loop
(4:58) What is Nonviolent Communication? (NVC)
(9:35) 4 Steps to NVC
(10:29) Step 1: Observation vs Evaluation
(12:57) Step 2: Feelings & The Feeling Wheel
(13:38) "You make me feel this way..."
(17:00) Anxiety and excitement
(17:58) Step 3: Needs vs demands
(19:26) Step 4: Request
(26:00) Making manageable requests
(28:00) Giving the person room to say "no"
(32:50) Healthy habits & communication with loved ones
(38:34) "Stop smoking or I'm going to break up with you."
(44:54) 2 people vs. the problem
(46:06) Unmet requests
(46:40) Nonviolent communication for kids
(53:40) Communicating Nonviolently with elder relatives
(57:23) Life Through Leadership NLP Academy
Connect with Aubrie & get certified as an NLP Practitioner & Life Coach:
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Connect with Lunden:
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Lunden Souza: [00:00:01]
Welcome to Self Love and Sweat, THE PODCAST. The Place where you'll get inspired to live your life unapologetically, embrace your perfect imperfections, break down barriers and do what sets your soul on fire. I’m your host, Lunden Souza.
Lunden Souza: [00:00:11]
Hey friend, it’s me, Lunden Souza, online lifestyle transformation coach. I help people all over the world, just like you, who know they are meant for more, get their mind right and their body tight and go from crazy busy to crazy happy. And hey, if it’s our first time meeting….Welcome, so happy to have you! And if you’ve been with us for a while, it’s so great that you’re here too. I’m really excited to share this episode of the Self Love & Sweat THE PODCAST with you.
Lunden Souza: [00:01:20]
Hey, welcome back to the podcast. Super excited to have Aubrie Pohl back. We talked about NLP, non neural linguistic programming and different NLP techniques on a previous episode and I'm super pumped to have her back. So Aubrie is a NLP trainer. She's how I got certification certified through NLP and Life Coaching. She's a human communication specialist and speaker. She helps coaches, healers and life learners get NLP certified through her signature life through Leadership NLP Academy to learn mental mastery tools for rapid transformation and life empowerment.
Lunden Souza: [00:01:42]
And she's just such an amazing human. So I'm so happy to have you back today on the podcast. Aubrie Today we're going to talk all about non violent communication. So maybe this is something brand new for you, maybe you've heard of it before. Maybe you can make kind of an idea of what it might be about based on the word non violent communication. But Aubrie coached on this in one of the groups that I attend for with her, and I just felt like, Oh my gosh, this is so valuable in my life and for everybody. And I quickly flew through the non violent communication book by Marshall Rosenberg and then another follow up book, kind of how he uses nonviolent communication, not just in our relationships and with people we might encounter, but how he uses it on a global scale to help us resolve issues in a way that can just be so much more empowering and less aggressive and demanding. And so I'm so excited for you to be here to talk all about nonviolent communication with us. I know you guys are going to love this episode, so welcome, Aubrie. How's it going?
Aubrie Pohl: [00:02:44]
Thank you. Thanks Lunden for having me on the show again. I'm so grateful and just so honored to be back and be able to discuss these kind of concepts and these ways of communicating with other people. It's just made such a profound difference in my life and a newfound confidence in how I'm communicating with other people. You know, because we're talking about conversations that are sometimes really hard to have, conversations that people avoid, conversations that, you know what, it is easier to just brush things under the rug and pretend it never happened. However, the body keeps score, the body will remember that kind of stagnation and no thorough communication, especially with our loved ones. And so nonviolent communication has been one of the most profound books that I've ever read. Any time someone asks me to recommend a book to them, that's my go to, because it does, as you're saying, shift the way that we perceive communication. And not only that gives you methods of how to communicate even easier. And so thanks again for having me on the podcast for holding the space for this kind of conversation. And you are doing so much great work in the world when it comes to sharing this info. So thank you.
Lunden Souza: [00:04:00]
Yeah. Yeah. And now this is this book is definitely on the list of books I would recommend to friends or anyone that might ask because yeah. When we, as we talk about this today and one of the things you've mentioned to me before is like that nonviolent communication really helps us move through conversations with people, which I love. And I think we can oftentimes find ourselves in a loop of same types of conversations, same struggles when it comes to communication. And I oftentimes have felt like I run into like the same wall over again. And it's like even as I'm practicing nonviolent communication, working on personal development a lot, there are always moments where, yeah, we come into contact with that wall and it's like, Oh, I hit it again, I hit it again. And I really feel like this book totally broke it down. And the way that you coached on it totally broke it down to really to see that pathway through some of those more stuck moments. And so I love that you share that. So what is non-violent communication outside of like not beating people up when you talk to them? I think that's kind of the first thing I think of is like put the fist down, you know? But what really is nonviolent communication? Let's start there.
Aubrie Pohl: [00:05:11]
Yeah, I love that. That's the same image I get. I get literally two people like sitting down very contently speaking to one another. And you're right, it's it is that it's thorough communication and it's a communication style and strategy that goes beyond the specifics of what the problem is, the specifics of what the conversation is about. And it goes deeper into understanding that humans have needs and understanding that you have needs, and the individual that you're talking to has different needs. And if you can bring the conversation to speaking about things greater than just the specific behaviors that aren't in alignment, but to bring the conversation to the deeper needs and the feelings that both individuals are experiencing, you're going to create more of an even stance. You're going to create more of that. Centered way of communicating with one another without having these huge violent emotions just being spewed out and vomited all over the place. It's this intensive awareness to what words you're choosing to use while in conversation with people.
Lunden Souza: [00:06:20]
Yes, and I feel like a nonviolent communication and learning this and even NLP to it's just allowed me to really slow down and think about what I'm saying before it comes out and kind of process that a little bit more. And yeah, with friends like you and coaches like you and just other people that I feel like are around me, I love when we can hold that space for one another to be like, Oh, they're trying to think about the best way to say this in a non violent way. And so I think that's really important to mention too is that when you learn this and you learn these steps and ways of communicating that we're going to talk about today doesn't mean that it makes it easy and just roll off, makes it just roll off the tongue like second nature. You know, there are moments where I'm like, I say something and then I'm like, Wait, it reminds me of the the Charlie and Lilly Wonka and the Chocolate Factory when he's like, Strike that, reverse it. It's like, you want to take a moment to be like, wait, rewind, let me say that. And so it's really helpful to have mentors and friends like you, Aubrie, that we can have those conversations. And then if we take a pause, it's like, Oh, she's just figuring out how to say that in the best way.
Lunden Souza: [00:07:30]
So as you guys are learning this, have grace with yourself and practice, and be open with your friends and your partners or people. Sometimes it's nice to be like, Yeah, I'm working on not saying this or saying this in a different way, and being open to that is helpful because I feel like I'm more like in a playground of practice and trial and error and like, does that is that fun? Do I like the way that sounds? Does that work? And so I kind of want to, yeah, start there because it is a whole new way of communicating sometimes. And even if we know the way we're communicating is not effective, we don't really know what to do instead. So this is kind of the alternative and I'm 33 years old and a lot of this conditioning is programmed, you know, for years and years and years. And so it is a process of like undoing the braid and weaving it a little bit and then like re crafting the way that you communicate and conversate. So I would love if everyone just put like your playful hat on, right? Playful and, and knowing that, you know, the way you've been doing it has only got you so far. And now here we are with new tools to help you communicate even better.
Aubrie Pohl: [00:08:31]
Oh, I love that you mentioned that, because all of these are completely new tools. I mean, I grew up in a family where the circumstance was brushed under the rug, pretend it never happened. It was very on and off, huge arguments with lots of screaming. And then a few hours later, it's like, well, what would you like for dinner? And there wasn't that in-between language of like, Hey, we had an argument back then. This is what I was feeling in the argument. This is what needs you know, there was no greater conversation in that way, which is why, you know, when I hit my twenties, I realized how poor of a communicator I was. I wasn't really able to express my feelings. I wasn't really able to thoroughly convey what was happening within. And I started getting the resources that I needed. And so now, a decade later, I'm so proud and happy to be in that space. So it does take that work and it is patience, patience with yourself. And you will speak at a slower rate because you are adding even more intention to the words that you're choosing to use. Very great point.
Lunden Souza: [00:09:35]
Yeah. Yeah. So let's jump in to nonviolent communication and the different parts of non violent communication.
Aubrie Pohl: [00:09:44]
Yeah. So it can be chunked up into these four major steps and each of these four major steps have a certain intention for why you're speaking so thoroughly, because we all know that it's just easier, easier quote unquote to say, Well, I'm speaking to a brick wall right now, or you're being dumb. Like, why are you talking that way? You know, those those just like splashy, blunt things that will sometimes say to people, and we'll blame them or we'll be super defensive in our own model of the world. And all of that are just these huge shields that keep us away from having that beautiful conversation that we can about nonviolent communication, about needs and feelings. So the first step is observation. And this one is really important because this is where the other person's defense mechanisms do not come up, because you are making an observation which is different than an evaluation. An observation would be, you know, I noticed that when you walked in the door today, you didn't say anything. Right. An evaluation would be, wow, you're you're freaking rude. You just walked in the door. You didn't even say anything to me. And it's like your route is a huge. Evaluation and judgment, and you're assuming that the other person has some intention in there. And so you are blaming them, you're pointing the finger at them, and any evaluation might have resistance, might have the other person there. Defense mechanisms are going to go up.
Aubrie Pohl: [00:11:23]
So by saying something that is purely sensory based. Right. I saw when you walked in, I didn't hear you say anything. There's not going to be that same kind of well, I'm not being rude because you're not blaming them for anything. You're not judging them. You're merely saying the observation of the sensory difference. Same as if you were to tell someone. Oh, I noticed when you gave me that response, right now your tonality changed. That's an observation. And evaluation is saying, wow, you're sassy today, aren't you? Because they're tonality change. But the judgment is that you think it's sassy, you think it's rude. That's not that might not be what's happening in their model of the world. So by bringing in the observation that's sensory based, you have the opportunity for them to give you their intention. And when they give you their intention, they feel more a part of the conversation. They feel like you're actually trying to see, hear and understand them, not judge them. So observations and this gets tricky because our judgments get in the way, our natural judgments and our tendencies and our beliefs, they'll get in the way. So that's when the space comes in. And you say, Am I evaluating their behavior for who they are or am I just noticing? The sensory based, the movement that they're doing and the way their voice is shifting and how can I communicate that? So once you've communicated the observation, then you talk about your feelings and there could be these big standard feelings like happy, sad fear, anger, right? But think about all the small nuances of feelings, things like distraught or jealous or insecure or ecstatic.
Aubrie Pohl: [00:13:17]
So there's something called the feeling wheel that you can Google, that it has about 50 feelings on it. And it's a beautiful picture of the differences because there is a difference between jealousy and envy. There is a difference between distraught or disappointed. There is a difference between joyful and ecstatic. You know, knowing what you're feeling is is very important because then you come from a space of expressing your feeling, not in a way that says, You made me feel this way. No one can make you feel a certain way. The reason that you're feeling a way is because you and your belief system, how to response to their behavior. Their behavior didn't make you feel a certain way. Your response to their behavior as well is that that feeling in you? So really taking accountability for I know this is my feeling and I just want to express that I'm feeling this way. I'm feeling disheartened when I notice that you walk inside and you don't say anything. And again, it's a beautiful way of not putting any accusation on the other individual, not pressing any judgment, merely coming from your own model of the world so you express your feelings as the second step.
Lunden Souza: [00:14:39]
Yeah, I want to add one thing in because I feel like this was really something that I so in the nonviolent communication book and I'm assuming on the feeling wheel too, you have a lot of options, you have a lot of words that describe feelings. And at first when I was reading through the list, I was kind of like, Oh, man, this is a lot. Is this like overwhelming? I don't know, repertoire of things I'm supposed to know that I'm feeling and be able to know. But it was actually much more empowering because it's like there are certain things that might be grouped into, like you said, happy or sad or fear or certain things. But to really be able to like hit the nail on the head with how you're feeling is actually so much more empowering than I thought. And I know we talked about this in our episode on NLP and this is something that you talk about a lot in NLP is like increasing choice and having more options. But for some reason I thought, you know, there's a few pages in the nonviolent communication book where it's like just feelings and I'm like, Oh man. But then I'm like, Wait, no, this allows me to like, yeah, like niche down on my feeling. It allows me to like really pinpoint what it is that I'm feeling and not to get too deep into it.
Lunden Souza: [00:15:46]
But Aubrie and I have been working on in my life some feelings of jealousy. And so exploring the difference between like jealousy and envy and just certain things I thought might make me feel a little squirmy, but actually make me feel like me made me. Here we are in this quick conversation of me just using this type of phrase, but it really helped me, yeah, identify it even more and embrace it and learn where it was coming from. So I think what I wanted to share here is it's just so cool when you open the doors of possibilities of how you might be feeling and then you're able to use it. Clearly it's not just like I'm mad about everything or I'm pissed about everything. It's like frustrated or like you said, disheartened or whatever that word might be, will allow you to, you know. And it's like, I don't. I don't I don't want to say nobody wants to be, but I mean, to be the angry person all the time or even the happy person all the time. It's just nice to have like different scales of a particular big picture emotion. So that was really empowering for me to have more words to describe how I might be feeling that are not just like good, bad, happy, sad. So that was really helpful.
Aubrie Pohl: [00:16:57]
Yeah. A beautiful clarification. And you're right. I felt that same kind of freedom and expansion that happened with me because for me, anxiety is very similar to excitement. And it's a very it's in the same kind of area of feeling. And what I get to do for a practice is hone in on that, like you said, niche down to what is it that I'm really feeling because the belief systems of excitement and anxiety are completely different. So knowing those little shifts and those ups and downs that we have on a personal level allows you to express the entirety of the world that you're feeling right, the huge iceberg that you're actually feeling and putting it into one word. It's very amazing that we can do this as humans because feelings are very, very complex in that way. I mean, they're so within us and within our nervous system and our mind, body and soul. And to be able to find a word to express it that feels true to you is a beautiful journey that we have the opportunity to to go in on.
Lunden Souza: [00:17:58]
Yeah. Yeah. Thanks. Cool. So we have the observation, then we have the feeling. And then what's number three.
Aubrie Pohl: [00:18:05]
To the observation? The feeling are all about, okay, so here's where I'm at, here's where I'm at, here's what I noticed, here's where I'm at. The third step is the need. Now, the need are these giant human needs that humans have that we all have. You know, the need to feel love might be one of them. The need to feel connection, the need to feel companionship or respect or whatever these words are of what you're searching for in life. Stating your need will help the other individuals see your greater intention will help them see that you are a human being that is asking for even more fulfillment in a certain area of life that you know you need. And by stating your need, you're still not telling them that they're doing something wrong. You're still not telling them that they need to change all of that stuff or people will get defensive. All you're saying is, this is where I'm at and I have a need for companionship, I have a need for a friendship or connection, whatever it is, honoring that and expressing that the other person has that natural, compassionate tendency towards, okay, this is a human being with needs, and that's what they're asking. Now, the fourth step is, is one of the most important, because the fourth step is about the request after you've now stated what you're feeling or what you're observing and what you're feeling and what need you're noticing, you want to be fulfilled even more.
Aubrie Pohl: [00:19:37]
The request is the action step that the other individual can do about it, where you're giving them guidance of like, okay, here's what we can do different. And the thing about the request is that you get to hold space for a possibility of them saying no because they might not fulfill this request of yours. And that's okay because they'll be moving on to their own needs and their own. So I'm not saying that by using nonviolent communication, these four steps you'll get everything in your heart's desire and all of the dreams come true, because some people might say no, and that's okay, because you're holding space for that. No, you're feeling like you're clearly communicating from your authentic truth. And that's what matters here, is that you feel that congruence. So the request might be something like. Would it be possible for when you come home for us to have a moment of connection together? That's not saying I need you to drop all of your stuff and find me and say hello. That's that sounds way different than saying would it be possible for us to have a moment of connection when you come home? And that right there is the next action task that someone else can do. Or, you know, if someone's speaking in a different tonality and the judgment used to be that they're being sassy. And you're saying I observed that when you responded to me that your tonality was different.
Aubrie Pohl: [00:21:09]
Now, when I hear that, I feel insecure and my need is for us to have more clarity in this moment. So my request is that would you be able to express how you feel about this? Would you be able to tell me what's going on with you? And there are these these beautiful introductions into new types of conversation that are much more about you need to do the dishes or take the trash out or text me. You know, it's so much greater than the behavior it's bringing the conversation into to what are the needs of the individuals involved and how can we create the communication so that both people feel seen, heard and understood and with these four steps. You might be the leader of this communication at first because a lot of us come from family relationships that this is not the norm, this kind of emotional intelligence, communication styles, it might not be the norm. So you might be the one that's leading these kind of conversations. And this is great because this is the growth that you want to do. And then you find friends and you find other people in your network that have this capacity to learn how to communicate this in this way. And then the goal is for, in my model of the world, for the conscious to collective, to continue to shift. And so where, you know, babies will now be born around this type of communication and then the world is.
Lunden Souza: [00:22:45]
Yes, yes. And just to come back to number three to needs, when you were talking about it's like our personal needs, not like I need you to do this right. And I think we can get caught up and the need of like, yeah, well, I need you to do this and do this, and then I'll feel some type of way. These are like needs that we have that have nothing to do with the other person taking action. And I think that can be a little confusing. And just like the autopilot that are the collective has is really like, well, I need you to do this and do this and do this. And it's like a list of these needs.
Aubrie Pohl: [00:23:17] Yeah.
Lunden Souza: [00:23:18]
Yes. So understanding that these are needs for yourself, not needs for another person, not demands for them to do something different. And then the request part of what someone I find that. That part. Sometimes people might know what they're feeling and what's coming up and what needs to be met, but then to make their request or to ask for some like an action or to make that request, there can be uncomfortable for a lot of PE. It's like sometimes it's like, well, he should just know. I hear that a lot too. And relationships and stuff too when they just know what I want and just do it, you know? I think that's something that comes up in the book too, is just like and then you're kind of like, Oh, well, if that's how that requests gets met, you can see how there's not that many possibilities to get that met there too. So have you found or what are some tools that can help us make our requests feel even better or make that request making process even easier? Let's say, like in a nutshell, because I know sometimes making the request, asking for that can be terrifying for some people.
Aubrie Pohl: [00:24:22]
Yeah, yeah, you're right. A lot of us aren't used to asking for help in this way or asking for what we truly need or desire, what's going to help. And I think that there's a certain lens that we want to come through, especially when it comes to any arguments or discrepancies that we're having with people. And if we think that it's one person versus the other in conversation that somebody needs to, quote unquote, win the conversation or when their demands being met, that's not the healthiest approach that we want to come from non-violent communication. It's not one person versus the other. You're not trying to fight somebody again. It's nonviolent. So the idea is to shift the frame. And if there's a problem, instead of it being one person versus the other person, it's two people versus the problem. So you're always on the same side as the person you're communicating with and you're saying, How can we work together to shift this? How can we work together to both fulfill our needs and which is going to have a way different space than an argument, one versus the other? And when it comes to making requests, you want these requests to be somewhat easy and manageable, right? You can always find a need for connection with even greater requests.
Aubrie Pohl: [00:25:47]
But in these first ones, when you're really practicing what a request is, a request is going to be a small action task that somebody can easily take to help you fulfill your needs. Because, again, they're going outside of of their system to help you fulfill their needs, your needs to help you fulfill your needs. So with requests, it's about what is. Manageable. What is tangible? What will actually give you the effect of behavior? And it's saying things like, can we have moments, a moment of connection? Would we be able to have a conversation about this? Would you know, would you be able to take the shoes off before entering into the door of the living room? Would that be and asking it with this permissive not, I need you to do this. I need you to take your shoes off saying things like Would it be possible for you to so the other person feels they have a choice? You want to give them a choice in the request, because when people have choices, they don't feel limited. They don't feel like they need to have resistance or defense mechanisms. They can honor their truth in their choice as well.
Lunden Souza: [00:27:03]
Yes. Yes. And in the in the need for connection that you mentioned, it's like, okay, it's one thing to be like, oh, I have it. I feel connected when we're on an extravagant vacation and we're here and you're all focused on me. But then, like you said, what's that lowest hanging fruit. You're asking someone to fulfill a need for you not to jump through hoops and via juggle and, you know, whatever, swallow fire at the same time. Right? So that need for connection could be like, would it be possible that even if you don't feel like talking when you come home, that we can just do a quick hug and just a moment of connection? And then if you don't feel like talking that day, that's great. So I love the variety of possibility and like the different levels of possibility to have your needs fulfilled and to make requests that are realistic and not, you know, just so over the top that it requires someone to completely change their life, their day, their whatever in order to fulfill that need. And I love what you said, too, about giving the person room to say no or to not be okay with it. Or would it be possible? No, it wouldn't be possible.
Lunden Souza: [00:28:07]
So let's figure out what is possible. I had a a very recent experience with a close friend of mine and really using doing my best to use nonviolent communication in the conversation and the way I approached it. And also just really, you know, praying for and hoping for a good opportunity to have this non-violent conversation with my friend. And at the end of it, when we were talking and I just I didn't, you know, I didn't want her to feel like, yeah, I was making requests that like she had to do, right. I said, you know, honestly, you could take whatever I say and not agree with it and you don't have to do anything with it. And that's okay too. And I had to check myself and be like, okay, if this friend never wants to talk to you again and doesn't want to be friends. Lunden I'm talking to myself. Are you in congruence with your values and who you want to be? And I said to my thought after the call, I'm like, Yes, if she never wants to be my friend again or talk with me, or we kind of lose this distance. I'm proud of the way that I communicate it. I'm proud of the way I showed up.
Lunden Souza: [00:29:19]
And I'm not really it's not going to really affect me if she chooses to continue to stay friends with me or not, in the sense of I'm not going to think I'm a bad person or a bad friend or I did something wrong. I really was. Yeah. As congruent with who I want to be and as intentional as possible. And I still know she might not receive that in the way that I meant to put it out there. And that's okay too. But that's really challenging as well. I had to like have a moment and I was on a walk when I was talking with her and then afterwards I continued my walk and I just talked to myself. I'm like, Yep, of course there might have been things if I had a playback and I replayed it all that I might switch here and there. But overall, super proud of the friend that I was in that moment and the person I was being and the way I was communicating. And she still might not receive that. And she's still we our friendship could not be the way that it was anymore. And that's a reality, too, of this type of communication.
Aubrie Pohl: [00:30:18]
I love that. And it points to the greater need that you were fulfilling of yourself, of making sure that you come through in a way that's most congruent for you and most authentic for you. And that's a huge part of nonviolent communication, too, is being okay if something does happen and being okay if something doesn't happen, because again, nonviolent communication allows you to feel completely authentic the whole way through in your your model of the world and your foundation. And sometimes when through that nonviolent communication, because you are digging deeper and because you are thoroughly communicating, you might find that the paths are different. Both people can walk away feeling okay about that because things come and go, friendships come and go, and as long as you're staying true to yourself, you're going to feel even better about it.
Lunden Souza: [00:31:10]
Yeah, it was a good experience and fairly recent to be honest. So yeah, in these pursuits of just having more nonviolent communication, that reflection moment of like OC am I in my integrity, am I in alignment with who I want to be? And those boxes were checked. So continuing to move through the conversation and move through life with both possibilities. Being real is cool and yeah, challenging, but in a good way. I feel like now that I have these tools to communicate, I just want to continue to use them and let's say sharpen them as as much as I can to really have it be. Yeah. Just the way that I am to. So I want to talk a little bit about change and communicating through change, because let's say even in this process where I'm at now and trying to consciously communicate even more and use nonviolent communication even more. In your examples of like you're being sassy versus when you walked in and I noticed your tonality change, like that's a lot more words and a lot more time spent saying something. And in in friendships that we've had for years, relationships we've been in for a while when we're trying to communicate or change our communication style, that would be one option. Or let's say I know. I mean, this is self love and sweat, the podcast. So it's like if you're stepping into new healthy fitness and routines and it's very different and you want to change and you know, the way that you may be interacted with your friends or your coworkers now is changing. I know sometimes the default can just be like, Well, yeah, I'm just trying to be healthier and I'm on a diet, so I'm not drinking and I'm not going out.
Lunden Souza: [00:32:48]
I'm not doing Happy Hours anymore. But what would be like some good examples of ways that we can communicate better to like our partner or our coworkers or our friends when we're looking to not engage in, let's say, said unhealthy behaviors or things that we want to improve when it comes to our health and fitness. I've had clients one on one, some of my one on one clients and one I can think of in particular where she's like, Yeah, I just didn't even share this goal with my friend group anymore because I just feel like I'm always off or on or on or off and then they have their opinion. So when we have a particular goal at, say, surrounding health, fitness and wellness, that's going to require some change on our part, what we're doing throughout the day, if we're going to set event or not, if we're going to the event, which behaviors are we engaging with? So what would be some using those four steps of observation, feeling, needs, request, or whatever? What would be some ways that we can communicate better and nonviolently instead of just like I told you, I need my freaking workout and you know you're not even here at home and it's your 10 minutes late, and now I'm late to my class, you know. So that way the whole process of becoming healthier and fitter and just those habits and routines becomes more enjoyable and a little bit less resistance, even though all change comes with resistance, what are maybe some helpful tools for us there?
Aubrie Pohl: [00:34:06]
Yeah, that's a beautiful question to an experience that probably a lot of people have when they start to change up their lifestyle and change up their habits and the things that they're doing, and especially maybe with friends they've had for a while or family, you know, it's like, oh, you're, you're trying that, that diet again or, you know, and they just bring up stuff like that. What's important to focus on is it's much more than just the behavioral shift, right? It's much more than just like, oh, no, I need to go get my workout in. I need to make sure that I'm hydrating. And I don't really want to have that glass of wine tonight because I'm not having wine tonight. You know, a lot of that is talked about behaviors. And I think at a fundamental human understanding is when we bring the conversation to the greater purposes, the needs that we are fulfilling in life. And we we are bringing it more into the deeper intention of the behaviors then other people are much more willing to understand and see our side of the story because the behaviors will shift. You know, sometimes they'll be drinking a gallon of water a day and then all of a sudden you'll realize, like, Oh, no, I need this many ounces, or I'm going to try this many meals because the overall shift is the. Journey to the healthier lifestyle, because what will the healthier lifestyle bring you? What are you really going for with all of this? With self, love and sweat? What are you really going for when you are opening up into the new self? Love, the new sweats, the new workouts.
Aubrie Pohl: [00:35:44]
It's all about that greater need that you're fulfilling. And I believe that when you approach people with that new boundary of, I'm not going to have the wine, I actually do need to go get my workout in. It's again, it's not about the behavior. It's I'm taking the opportunity today to focus on my and what the need is. So is the need self confidence, is it self love? Is it, you know, physiological health for more vitality? And when you communicate that deeper need to people, they'll say, okay, so it's not just she's just not skipping out on wine night, you know, because she's tired or something like that. It's like, okay, well, Aubrie's actually venturing into this new journey of increasing her health and vitality. And so when you tell people what you're doing, instead of telling them the behaviors, you can tell them the need that you're fulfilling. And then they'll say, Och, that's what you're doing. Because the behaviors will come and go. They'll shift. We'll go through all these little phases of like what is actively working for us in the moment. And sometimes certain foods like seasons, the food changes too. So instead of saying, Oh, I need to go get my workout in, it's like, no, I'm I'm really excited to go work on my health today. It's much different than saying I need to go get the workout and it's like, I'm really excited and you're stating your boundary by stating your need and you're also saying, I'm going to get my need met. And I think that might be a little bit easier way to to host the conversation with friends or family.
Lunden Souza: [00:37:30]
Yeah. Yeah. That big picture need can be really helpful instead of like, Oh yeah, now she's doing this workout or she used to drink a gallon a day. Not that it matters. And of course it says something more about the person making these projections and pointing the finger. And I think we can get caught up in like, well, yeah, now I'm doing keto or now I'm doing this. It's like, No, you're in that process of becoming healthier and having more vitality and you're trying on a lot of different options to see like what fits the best. And I really like that. And yeah, it takes, it takes time. And I also grew up similar in the way that you mentioned where like certain things happen and then you don't really like fully discuss and process. So now doing that and maybe having conversations with people you've never communicated needs with before and been like, I have this need for, you know, it's like I can imagine maybe having some of these conversations with people, yeah, in my family or whatever. And I can see like a kind of like a contorted face, almost like, you know, when you try to explain this, but it's just a little bit more playful and being able to communicate that need. I love that. One of I would say this was probably like I think four or five years ago and I was going through yeah. A lot of of trials and challenges in a past relationship with with my ex and we're still close friends. So I feel safe talking and sharing some of these things. And this was so yeah, about five years ago.
Lunden Souza: [00:38:58]
This is probably a little bit after I first learned more about NLP from you through you. Aubrie And so I was just like struggling in certain areas and certain things were working and certain things weren't. And I remember one time telling my ex, I was like, If you don't stop smoking because you smoked cigarettes, I'm going to break up with you. I can't be with someone who smokes. And I remember that moment saying it and knowing that's probably no way to change someone like that's no way to get a smoke. He's not going be like, Oh, really? You're going to break up with me? Like, Okay, I'm going to just stop smoking. One of the things he said, he's like, But you dated me and got with me and I was smoking. So, like, this is not like a new thing that just popped out, you know? And I remember thinking like, that's not the way I want to say that at all. But I didn't know how to say it any better at that moment. With the tools I had, I just kind of like let it out. And I remember where I was. I was like doing laundry, like, aggressively and like putting stuff away. And just, like, I'm done, like, I can't just, you know, and yeah, now a good story is like, we're not together anymore, but. And he chose to quit smoking on his own is still smoke free feels way better. It was his choice. It was his thing. So yeah, that was an experience I remembered and I shared with you before we hopped on.
Lunden Souza: [00:40:12]
I'm like, I remember one time just being so demanding and just ra and I think maybe when it comes to Yeah, maybe smoking or other healthy like, you know, maybe your partner or friend, it's like you want them to get working out. It's like you can't, you know, just make a demand and yell at them and do that. But that was something I did. And I was like, Oh man, I could have had way better communication skills to do that. But yeah, it was five years ago. I have compassion of grace for where I was and where I am, but I think we all have those moments we can think about where it's like, Oh yeah, I totally especially when you start to learn nonviolent communication, you're like, Oh yeah, a lot of Rolodex. Memories of moments. I didn't use it very well came up. And so what would be a better way to communicate that using these four steps? Yeah, it's especially when we're concerned with someone, right? Like I was so concerned. Like, it wasn't like I thought he was disgusting because he smoked, right? It's like I was concerned, like with his health and his well being and wanting him to be around longer because. Yeah, I mean, some smokers live to be 120, right? And then but for the most part, it's not something that lengthens our life. So I cared. And so when we care about someone and we want to say something, we want them to do something or maybe change, but we don't want to be demanding. How can we use our words even better in those cases?
Aubrie Pohl: [00:41:29]
Yeah. I love that you honored the fact that you didn't have the resources that you have now and now having these new resources about communication, you get to look back and say like, Oh, wow, yeah, that definitely I gave him an ultimatum like straight up that didn't even talk about my needs. It was just like, you need to change or this going to happen. And again, did that. It's a straight demand. It's not a request. It's not saying your feelings, it's not saying your needs. So it was just saying change. This is why? Or just because I said so is kind of that same answer that parents will say to kids because I said so. And it doesn't give the other person that feeling of being seen, heard or understood. They're just getting whatever feelings coming up inside of them. But your voice is demanding that they need to change. And I mean, if someone comes up to you and they tell you to change something that you've been doing for a while, it's like, who do you think you are to tell me this kind of stuff? And so now with these new resources, it's, it's seeing that there you do have a greater intention. You do have a greater intention for why you're saying that. So in that example, your intention is you you care about his health, you know, the effects of long term smoking. You've seen the effects of smoking, and you work in the industry that is outside of it. So you see the benefits of not doing it. So you had all this perspective, but you didn't know how to conversationally say it in a way that can help you really share your authentic truth in a way where he wouldn't get resistant or defensive. And so saying something like, because what's the observation? The observation is the act of smoking cigarettes. And then so what would be the feeling? Because in that moment, if you were to go back, what were you actually feeling?
Lunden Souza: [00:43:29]
I would say yeah. Like a little bit scared for his health and well-being. Yeah.
Aubrie Pohl: [00:43:36]
Scared for his health and well-being. And imagine if someone came up to you and they said, you need to stop doing this. And now imagine if somebody came up to you and said, I'm noticing you're doing this. I have a feeling of because of my understanding of the subject, that I feel scared. We have noticed some effects of this and my intention. Then you start talking about the needs and the intentions, the greater purpose of the conversation. So maybe the need is to have communication, have a open communication, or maybe and that it might have been a need for transparency because you want a relationship where you're feeling like you're expressing yourself transparently. And then the request would be. Instead of the request, like I need to write, I need you to stop smoking cigarettes now. It's like my need is for full transparency and my request would be, can we work together? To shift this if you're willing. And that, again, that gives him the say yes or no. You know, he might say no, and that's totally fine. And in that moment, if you're saying, can we work together, you're coming from that space of two people versus the problem rather than one person versus the other. And so I find it really helps in those kind of situations. If you are in a committed partnership with somebody like it's all about working together. So the request isn't for you to change the behavior. The request is for us to discover a new behavior or for us to discover a way to move forward together, to continue being a strong relationship. And I feel like holding that kind of space has a different effect. And to me it clearly has a different effect than pointing the finger and saying, you need to stop this habit.
Lunden Souza: [00:45:31]
Yeah. Or else that really does become that picture of what we initially talked about in the beginning of like nonviolent communication versus let's say violent is just like two people forward, fist, gloves on, just like ready to, you know, box pretty much instead of two people working together with more resources to go after something that might be challenging and key phrase at the end, they don't have to change anything based on your needs or your request. They still are a person with their own autonomy and can do and choose what they want. And so I think that's really important too, because you can be making these requests and then just be like, No, sorry, that's not what I want to do, you know? And I think that's sometimes the biggest surrender part on my behalf is like OC what they choose to do with this information, no matter how carefully crafted and non-violent and I followed all four steps, the outcome could still be based on how they might be feeling. Totally. One of my favorite parts, and you kind of mentioned this in the beginning about having this be something that. You know kids and way like basically have this be a part of the way that we grow up instead of it being how yeah how you and I kind of similarly in our twenties, we're like, wait, wait, we, you know, this, there's some there.
Lunden Souza: [00:46:50]
We could do this better. This is what I saw, you know. And in the non violent communication book, one of the stories that Marshall Rosenberg shares is about a guy who's really doing his best to communicate non-violently, and he has a little card that he keeps with him that like my observation is my feeling is my needs are and this is the request. And he was continuously referring to this card with his family. And then there was one instance that he talks about where the the man and his son are like sitting on the couch and there's like a confrontation or a communication. Yeah, just it's not going well. And at that point, the guy had not had stopped using his card. Like, he was just like, no, I just, you know, I can kind of know it. And the little boy told his dad, Dad, get the card, get the card, like, so that we could move through this conversation. And I loved that story because that's really how it feels sometimes when you're learning new ways to communicate, it's like you feel like you're a little kid learning something new. And so, dude, having the flash cards or the note cards or the reminders or you know, in my conversations with you, Aubree, there's some things that you say that I love, and I just make little notes in my phone of ways that I can communicate even better.
Lunden Souza: [00:47:56]
And I was telling you, I'm like, in ways that feel like, more slangy, not just like, this is what happened and the feelings that came up are right. Aubrie wrote me yesterday when I was giving her some feedback about a way that she helped me, and she's like hearing your feedback and the way that you. Yeah, that it's helped you lights me up. It wasn't like that makes me happy or that makes me a certain way. And so being able to see this as playful and fun and then like a child's eyes of like this, these are new tools and new blocks I get to kind of play with and figure out. And so if you need that card and you want to invite that card into your families or with your kids, and I oftentimes think about my niece who just turned four and her and I, we have our little toilet talks because when she goes to the bathroom, she sits there and I just like talk to her. And then sometimes I'll tell her, like, you know, what can you tell Auntie? And she's like, anything, you know, because I want to have that open line of communication.
Lunden Souza: [00:48:46]
And so I've used that time to introduce some words to her. So I'm like, If you're feeling frustrated, you can let me know what's being what makes you feel frustrated if you're feeling a little bit bitter or just like different words. So she can, at a young age, just start to have this bigger vocabulary of ways she might be feeling. Not just like, if you're happy, you can tell Auntie, if you're sad, you can come to me. I'm trying to, like, put in different words and help her develop that vocabulary and language even more. And I would say to that's my biggest desire with, you know, the reasoning for why I'm stepping into this. Of course it's helping me in my life, but I think about to about my niece and the young people of this world and how valuable just being able to communicate how you might be feeling. Because I mean, and I say this totally respectfully, but in life coaching and what I'm doing, I see a lot of grown adults have temper tantrums. So it's like, how do we get to have something that's in childhood that gets our needs met, like temper tantrum sometimes do, but that's helpful and empowering that we can actually bring with us into adulthood.
Lunden Souza: [00:49:49]
Right. And so I feel like that for me is so why I want to communicate this way, because I can think about moments as a kid when I would hear my parents or grandparents or other elders talk, it's like you might not be able to process it then, but at some point you're like, I don't know. Some of these connections start to come together, you know? And I just think to like when my niece is hearing me communicate and just anyone for that matter, I want to do better at communicating nonviolently for myself, but also to be that example of not just like we had this blowout and then there's like no bridge and then let's just go back to normal, right? So I feel like the nonviolent communication, the ability to express how we feel, what we need is like that bridge that was missing, I think, in the way you kind of describe your the way you grew up and the way that confrontation was very similar. It's like I often see some of these tools that just being like this bridge. It's not that everything needs to be rebuilt. It's just like there's some bridges that need to be. Yeah, gaps that need to be bridged. And I feel like nonviolent communication is helpful there.
Aubrie Pohl: [00:50:47]
I completely agree. I completely agree. It's not if only it was taught in all of the schools. And I feel like there is a shift in those kind of schooling, mythologies and ways to teach the younger generation this because it wasn't what I was growing up with in in my way of communicating. And so I did hold a lot of space for myself and continue to, you know, and now that I'm 30 and all throughout my twenties of how can I become an even better communicator and how can we learn subjects like this? And there's just been such profound changes in my relationships with my friends and this harmony that comes with people in general through this way of communicating. Because the space that you're holding for yourself and others is. All about deep, compassionate human needs and allowing somebody to communicate and not fear that they're going to be reprimanded, not fear that they're going to be acted out with violence or things like that. And. How beautiful it is to give yourself that space and then see the next generation growing up and holding that kind of space for them and watching them. It's so it boggles my mind. And I love it when I see children that I'm in the same land area with use words like that of like I'm feeling frustrated, like, whoa. And honoring their feelings. So the more that we can do this, the more that the conscious collective will shift and that peace will come throughout everything.
Lunden Souza: [00:52:23]
Yes, totally. I know hearing little humans have these broad, expansive vocabularies for the way that they're feeling is is so helpful and so cool to to witness and to to be around. All right. Thank you so much for for being here and for your time to share this with us. And for those of you listening, like, you know, this is a well, yeah, it's four steps we talked about. Right. But like I said, it can be challenging with some hiccups here and there and just allowing yourself that grace and I oftentimes think about that version of me that came to my boyfriend and you better stop smoking or I'm going to break up with you. I mean, that wasn't 20 years, five years ago. It's not only that long. And I look back and I'm like, okay, that was a version of me that just didn't have the tools that I have now. And it helps me have a lot more compassion for where I was and where I am and then also others, right? You see them in spaces. It's like we can't fast forward the process for them. We just because we know nonviolent communication doesn't mean that we just get to like copy paste onto them.
Lunden Souza: [00:53:25]
And it helps me a lot to think about, okay, I was there too where I didn't have a lot of tools and they're in this space as well, where they're in the process of collecting their tools. And what's also been helpful for me is knowing that. It has nothing to do with like age. I grew up in a way where it was kind of like, okay, you follow your elders, like, grown ups. It's like. Like I'm doing. Like, for those of you listening, I'm like, going upstairs with my hand. And I feel like what's been helpful too is like, Yeah, there might be patterns and things to fix with parents or grandparents or others where it's kind of like, but you're the grown up, you know, in my, you know, my old model of the world, the way I grew up, it's like you're the grown up. You should have the answers, you should know you're the go to. It's like sometimes when you're in that space of of communicating differently in a way that was not present in the way that you grew up. You could be the first person in your space modeling that not just for the young ones, but for the older ones, too.
Lunden Souza: [00:54:19]
And that older generation who didn't have those tools and I'm saying this out of talking to myself, it's like good to have moments where you're like really compassionate about that. It's like they don't no one said, because they're older or whatever, that they need to have all the answers and that they're supposed to be wiser. That was just like, I call it now a limiting belief that I just had. And that's been really helpful to as to understand remodeling this, not just for the younger ones, but for the older ones too. Maybe just weren't in a position to have access to this type of book or coaching or whatever. And that's been really helpful too, because I found myself feeling frustrated and disheartened and just sad when I felt like, you know, I was in that space of like, they're older, they should know better. Why are they treating me this way? So it really is. I feel like it's helpful to like level the yeah, like the empathetic playing field of just like, okay, you know, they are doing their best to age. Doesn't really mean anything when it comes to the tools you're gaining.
Aubrie Pohl: [00:55:16]
Yeah, it's so true. And everyone's still learning in new ways and people have found their own ways of communicating that may or may not be working for them. And you know, like you said, when you become the nonviolent communicator, you're not on some weird superiority complex. You're giving everyone the same space that you're giving yourself to really work through this new way of communicating deep emotions, deep connection, deep transparency, so we can all meet at that that emotional playing field. I love how you said that the empathetic playing field and even if you learn these techniques. You might be the leader of the conversations and you might say this is a new way of communicating that I'm trying, because if you if you have a close relationship with somebody, normally you have these violent arguments that have slamming doors and things like that. And then all of a sudden you're like, well, this is what I'm observing and feeling and my needs and my request. The other person might be like, Who are you? What's going on? Authentically share that you are shifting how you're communicating because you know there's going to be benefits to communicating non-violently rather than arguing in violent ways. And that, again, people will hold space because you're pointing to the greater needs, you're pointing to the greater needs of yourself, of other people and for everyone involved.
Lunden Souza: [00:56:45]
Yes. Thank you so, so much for this awesome, powerful conversation. I love having you on the podcast and just talking with you in general, because there's always so much space for this practice, this playing field, and always great new tools that I feel like, that's cool. I like that. I'm going to keep that in and put that with me. So I'm sure you guys listening have found many aha moments and little nuggets you can take with you. And if you want to connect with Aubrie and learn more from her and with her, which I highly, highly recommend, how can we do that, Aubrie? How can we connect with you, learn from you, maybe even some coaches listening want to get certified in NLP or life coaching with you? How can we do that?
Aubrie Pohl: [00:57:24]
Awesome. My main gig is my signature life through Leadership NLP Academy and that's my baby. That is the big program. It's a 65 hour course of really deep diving into these communication patterns. And I have a website that's Life through Leadership NLP. I also have an Instagram. It's Aubrie. It's Aubrie. You can find me mostly on those, too. I'm on Facebook as well. Aubrie poll and thank you, Lunden, for holding this face and this conversation inviting me back on the podcast. This stuff lights me up. It really does. I get so enthusiastic and and so inspired to share this way of communicating because the benefits just they they snowball into the amazing avalanches of beautiful communication and the opportunity to feel more authentic in your own truth. So I appreciate you and this podcast as well, and thanks all for everyone that's listening.
Lunden Souza: [00:58:25]
Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. You guys check out what Aubrie has to offer, get connected with her on social, maybe. Potentially. Hopefully join in on one of her 65 hour NLP coaching certifications, which I can say I've went through twice. Most entertaining, engaging, fun, empowering 65 hours pretty much straight, to be honest, that I've ever experienced. So your type of coaching is really next level. It's really empowering, really awesome. You guys get connected with Aubrie and I'll put the links in the show notes for everything she mentioned on how to connect with her, the books of nonviolent communication, and also our previous episode that Aubrie and I did on All about NLP and techniques to help shift your perception. So thank you, Aubrie. Love you so much and talk to you soon.
Aubrie Pohl: [00:59:13] Thanks, Lunden. Love you, too.
Lunden Souza: [01:00:00] Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Self, Love and Sweat, the podcast. Hey, do me a favor. Wherever you're listening to this podcast, give us a review. This really helps a lot and share this with a friend. I'm only one person and with your help we can really spread the message of self love and sweat and change more lives all around the world. I'm Lunden Souza, reminding you that you deserve a life full of passion, presence and purpose fueled by self, love and sweat. This podcast is a Hitspot Austria production.